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Exactly. And seeing the things that can happen as bigger than ourselves, which is accurate. Which obviously connects to other ideas in 20th century American music. We could talk about John Cage, about intentionality of the composer and taking that out of the equation. Images and sounds are bigger than anything we could possibly plan for or create ourselves. They have their own agency. It has to do with the interdependent nature of all things, self included.


Ernst Karel is an artist who works with sound, including electroacoustic music, experimental nonfiction sound works for multichannel installation and performance, and postproduction sound for nonfiction films and videos, with an emphasis on observational cinema. His recent solo projects are edited/composed using unprocessed location recordings; in performance he sometimes combines these with analog electronics to create pieces which move between the abstract and the documentary. He has released various albums both solo and collaborative that have been on Cathnor Recordings, and/OAR, and Greunrekorder. From 2007 until 2017 he managed the Sensory Ethnography Lab at Harvard University, doing postproduction sound for films including Sweetgrass, The Iron Ministry, Manakamana, and Leviathan. He co-directed Expedition Content with Veronika Kusumaryati, and the film is streaming now as part of Film at Lincoln Center\u2019s Art of the Real. Joshua Minsoo Kim talked with Karel on November 20th, 2020 to discuss his new film, how he approaches teaching sound and sound editing, and more.


One of her old friends was my former elementary school music teacher\u2014Judy Bond\u2014and she came to the screening. Although she was late and only came for the Q&A, which is funny; there was a meeting at her church or something, and she came after that. She came up to me and it was wonderful to see her. I hadn\u2019t seen her in a long time. Here I was, standing and talking to people in the front of the theater,and she comes and tells me that when I was in second grade, she knew at that time that I was really good at the Orff instruments, which are like xylophone-type instruments.


I was taking a course with Susan Goldin-Meadow about gesture, about the relationship between gesture and thought, about non-verbal language and thought. It\u2019s a super interesting area. It\u2019s about how thought becomes externalized, and gesture precedes language a lot of the time. So I started thinking more generally: what about non-linguistic sound? So here we\u2019re talking about linguistic non-sound and meaning, but what about non-linguistic sound and meaning? And non-musical sound and meaning? And the way we make meaning and navigate the world and construct our sense of ourselves and our relationship to the world through non-linguistic and non-musical sound.


I did what was basically a Master\u2019s thesis\u2014a fieldwork project\u2014looking at the significance of the sound of bells in the ceremonies of a particular temple in South India. I spent three months in this temple just listening to the sound of bells and talking to people about the sound of bells from this temple. In particular, it was these two huge bells that rang together. There were five pujas a day but the bells didn\u2019t ring at every one of them. It was this completely enveloping experience. I was looking at those two bells functioned in terms of how people made sense of their experience of puja.


I have a basic idea, which is that students are exploring listening beyond just words. They\u2019re thinking about ways of knowing beyond the linguistic, as we\u2019ve been talking about. They are thinking critically about the difference between listening and experiencing the world directly with one\u2019s senses. They\u2019re listening to audiovisual media. Those things are often conflated, especially with discourse around field recording and listening and so on.


Well, luckily, they convince themselves. I don\u2019t know why that way of talking persists because it becomes so self-evident. These are practice-based classes. It\u2019s a class where they\u2019re out with their handheld recorders and other microphones that they\u2019re attaching to their recorders, depending on what\u2019s available. So they\u2019re making their recordings and they\u2019re experiencing for themselves that their experience of listening in a place, and the kind of things that they\u2019re able to cause to show up in a recording, and the kind of experience we then have when we listen back to the things we recorded\u2014in a classroom with a sound system\u2014are all totally different from each other. All those three things.


And even before we decided there were going to be subtitles, the piece was basically in the form it is. We had already included these episodes of this woman washing sweet potatoes in the ditch who talks to Michael and multiple times suggests that he sits away from her, and it\u2019s unclear if he understands or not. That whole interchange was in the piece just for sonic reasons even before we realized that it would have all these extra levels of depth with the translation. And these were all translations that Veronika had worked on with a Hubula anthropologist, Nicolaus Lokobal and a Hubula musician named Korneles Siep.


It just obviously adds more dimensions (laughs). One could be of two minds of experiencing something completely without that linguistic dimension, as we talked about it earlier. But obviously adds whole other dimensions of depth when it\u2019s translated. It becomes extremely important when we think about it in relation to Dead Birds, the film that Robert Gardner made at the same time, that this audio was supposedly being recorded for although very little of it was used for the film. In that film, you don\u2019t hear Hubula voices, let alone women\u2019s voices. So, here\u2019s a chance to hear them.


I don\u2019t know if I\u2019m really dogmatic but this came out of working on Leviathan, this idea of appreciating that audio that emerges from an encounter for its own sake rather than trying to make something sound a particular way because you think it should sound a particular way. For example, let\u2019s say someone goes off with a camera and a microphone and puts a lens and puts the microphone capsule into various situations, and then comes back. I put my camera lens and microphone capsule into these various situations, and this is now what showed up on tape. This is the image and this is the audio file. And that\u2019s the ideal case, it seems to me. It\u2019s maybe bordering on dogmatic to say, \u201CLet\u2019s just stick with that.\u201D


What were the frequency characteristics of that mic? How was it that the filmmakers happened to have that mic with them and not some other mic? Obviously I\u2019m getting a little absurd but that would be amazing. And you get that in Expedition Content. It\u2019s all about a mic. And it\u2019s a bit of a pun because that\u2019s the recordist\u2019s name. It\u2019s all about that microphone capsule and the way it\u2019s being inexpertly held in the hand, the wind that blows across it and all that stuff. So that really was an illuminating moment. I saw the difference between my worldview and this worldview\u2014they\u2019re totally different.


Thanks for sharing that. All that was super interesting. I only have a couple more questions\u2014we\u2019ve been talking for a while now and I don\u2019t want to take up too much of your time.


Oh no, this is what I live for, don\u2019t worry. So something I was curious about given everything that we\u2019ve talked about: what\u2019s the most surprised you\u2019ve been by a sound that you\u2019ve heard, either from when you were recording yourself or from working on a film? Have you been surprised by sounds you\u2019ve heard while recording?


Not to harp on Leviathan but the sounds that came out of those GoPro cameras were pretty mindblowing. That\u2019s why I wanted to stick with them. They were harsh and noisy but very detailed in their noise, it was like whoa. On a different level, looking again to these older films, Manakamana. It was recorded by Stephanie Spray with just a stereo microphone in a gondola. It was just beautifully done and it was just this pair of mic capsules in a gondola. Hearing a radio playing in a village that they\u2019re passing over, or the birds that are down below\u2014all this depth and detail came through in that recording.


Just as a tangent to what we were talking about a minute ago, the fact that people asked about foley or were convinced there was foley in Manakamana has to do with the sort of distrust of the soundtrack that people who see movies learn; you assume that what you\u2019re hearing isn\u2019t from what you\u2019re seeing because that\u2019s how you know movies are made. That\u2019s a bit of a tragedy. Maybe that\u2019s a bit of an overstatement, but people learn not to trust the soundtrack. The soundtrack is exempt from the point of nonfiction. 2ff7e9595c


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